See, this is why some people think the ACLU is kinda nuts. They went and filed a friend-of-the-court brief arguing on behalf of our friend Senator Larry Craig, 2007 Liquid Egg Product on the Face Award runner-up, claiming his arrest was unconstitutional. The argument is that soliciting sex in a public restroom is protected 1st amendment speech. Even if they are technically right, it isn’t doing wonders for their image.
“[If the police really wanted to stop people from having sex in public bathrooms], they should put up a sign banning sex in the restroom and send in a uniformed officer to patrol periodically.” — ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero
This is absolutely going in the quotes database.
Who the deuce is Brad Renfro? He was found dead this morning and this is the most popular story on CNN.com this morning. [EDIT: He’s some actor.]
Some convenience store robber shot himself in the nuts in the midst of a heist. What is up with these copy-cat criminals, trying to one-up the guy who stabbed himself in the stomach?
I think the ACLU’s position in the Larry Craig case is consistent and correct. I am so glad that we have an organization like the ACLU to take issues like this to battle in the courts. The fact of the matter is that police are out of control and should be checked much more harshly.
“The real motive behind secret sting operations like the one that resulted in Sen. Craig’s arrest is not to stop people from inappropriate activity. It is to make as many arrests as possible — arrests that sometimes unconstitutionally trap innocent people,” Romero said in a written statement.
Larry Craig didn’t actually have sex in the bathroom, and even if he had been willing to, willingness to commit a crime is not a crime. I think the ACLU will be able to make a strong case that the speech or gestures used to initiate sex (whether the sex is intended to take place in a public or private place) should be protected by the first amendment.
I understand that this means that for a sting operation like this to work the officer would have to take this dramatization a lot further. Good. Make the senator take his pants off before you arrest him. But taking your pants off in a public bathroom isn’t an offense either, so….
Another question is how does such a sting operation serve the public interest? I don’t really see how stopping gay sex in a public bathroom has anything to do with stopping criminals. But that’s just me.
Point well taken, but really this is why the expression “Get a room!” was coined… 🙂
I’m as libertarian as anyone when it comes to sex but I don’t want to walk into the airport restroom and find two guys getting it on.
That said, the whole hand waving thing does seem to be pretty thin gruel for an arrest. Larry Craig’s main crime is being really, really stupid…I still say he shoulda won, not the judge!
I was wondering if and who was going to mention this. Now I have to get out of cheap laugh mode and into serious mode. I half-agree with you.
The ACLU is consistent and serves an important role. But they also sometimes take up some very odd fights.
willingness to commit a crime is not a crime
True, but at what point should the authorities have the ability to prevent an imminent crime?
In this case, the sting operation is, at least, dreadfully inefficient. I’m not convinced it’s actually illegal, but the trepidation’s understandable.
Stopping people having sex in public bathrooms may be a matter of interest to people who don’t want their kids to have to overhear it. Along with the adults who really aren’t interested in stumbling on it.
@Wahrheit: Darn you for commenting at the same time! 😀
“Get a room” is a much more succinct way of stating what I was thinking. There is some public interest in the police action.
I wonder how different the public reaction would have been if it were two females getting some action…
As long as the two females were in the men’s bathroom I don’t see any problem with it…
Donnie, you have a way of stimulating serious discussion when you’re seemingly in cheap laugh mode. It’s one of the reasons this blog is now a favorite in certain White House circles (according to my contacts there). To illustrate what I mean, the last two comments suddenly reminded me of some really bad movie I saw once where (I think it was) Rebecca DeMornay passes some stolen jewels to her female accomplice and they do it by making out in front of some guy to distract him. Except they keep going for awhile after the pass is made…
Where’s the serious discussion part you may be asking? Oh yeah, it was in the men’s bathroom! So if they had got caught, the ACLU would presumably have defended their right to pass stolen property while wildly feeling each other up in a men’s room because all property is theft, and anyway The Patriarchy caused them to steal because of male science–if science embraced Women’s Ways of Knowing there’d be no more war and they could have been priestesses instead of jewel thieves.
See what I mean about serious discussion! 😉
Acutally, I thought the argument the ACLU made was that two men have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the restroom.
Willingness to commit a crime isn’t a crime, that’s correct, but does that mean that if I jump out of the bushes in front of someone and pull out a knife that the police should wait for me to actually sink my knife in them? Thrusting the knife at them isn’t a crime yet, it’s just signaling my willingness to injure someone.
While homosexuality in general creeps me the hell out, I think regulating sexual activity between consenting adults – whatever their gender – is just a waste of time.
However, Donnie makes a good point. No one wants to see that ess in public.
As for the ACLU, I have a message for them…if the very mention of your organization’s name makes people roll their eyes, it’s time to throw in the towel. Or at least change tactics.
My above comment made utterly no sense so I’m back to make a practical, cogent suggestion actually related to the post; maybe the Mascot could be talked into a reenactment of the robbery by the guy now known as “Old One-nut”?
Allen – Threatening to injure someone is a crime, it is assault, the use of a deadly weapon makes it aggravated assault. So thrusting your knife at them is actually a crime already. But speaking about committing a crime can actually get you in trouble in some cases, such as conspiracy to commit bank robbery or murder, so I do give credit to the argument that willingness to commit a crime may be a crime. However in this case the ACLU makes the point that if this action were to have taken place in a public area, let’s say a bar, there would be no case for the prosecution. If Larry Craig had gone up to an undercover officer at a bar and told him he wanted to give him a blowjob in the bathroom the officer would not have been able to arrest him. So why does the fact that he was talking (gesturing, whatever) about it in the bathroom make it wrong? Like the ACLU says if you want to police sex in the bathroom have a uniformed officer check in there every so often for this kind of action don’t set up a sting operation to try and trap people.
Annie – This organization always sides with civil liberties, hence their name. It would be pretty hypocritical and futile for them to pick and choose which violations of civil liberties are more important. The fact that they contribute to cases like this is what distinguishes them from organizations who are swayed by such temporal factors as image or money. Just because people give them a bad image they should stop their commitment to help any and all who have had their freedom trampled on?!
The fly in the ointment–ACLU doesn’t take Second Amendment cases, ever. As far as they’re concerned, it doesn’t exist for individuals. So perhaps they do pick and choose…
Wahrheit – Although I am probably one of the most liberal people you will ever meet, I also support the second amendment as I think it would be very helpful if it were necessary to revolt against the US government, which (especially judging from post-Patriot Act America) seems like a more and more plausible scenario. This scenario, while still highly unlikely, is no doubt the reason that our forefathers included this clause in the bill of rights and I think this should be respected. And while I find it a bit disheartening that the ACLU does not support the right to own firearms there are many conservative organizations that will take up this cause any time and I consider this to be a mitigating factor.
drunknknite–right on, good to know that there are those who understand about revolt and the forefathers! Liberal or conservative doesn’t matter, we need to keep these people in line and preserve out liberties, that’s the bedrock issue.
Doesn’t ACLU do something or other against folks who offend others by putting up Christmas trees or nativity scenes? That seems to me a violation of the Christmas tree lover’s liberties.
holy crap, brad renfro is dead!?!?!?! you don’t remember him from the great movie “mummy ‘an the armadillo” ? damn, another great flame, extinguished before his time…
@l3rucewayne: Here’s a couple cases as an example:
1. There was a judge in Alabama who insisted on having the Ten Commandments posted in the courtroom. ACLU sued on separation of church and state correctly.
2. In a national park, there was some sort of tribute to world war veterans, including a cross for a grave marker. ACLU sued on separation of church and state grounds.
Would people really believe such a monument means the government is supporting Christianity? I thought this was a strange and bad fight.
Sorry to not to respond to everyone. Not much more to add.
My favorite was when the ACLU sent a black lawyer to represent the KKK when they were denied the right to march.
I don’t agree with the cases that ACLU picks a lot of the time, but admittedly they’re passionate about what they do.
The ACLU doesn’t really have to handle the 2nd Amendment cases because the NRA generally will cover those.
Oh were they all church and state things? I thought I remembered something about regular citizens and/or universities to do with Christmas trees and nativity scenes. I should probably pay more attention.
As for the self castrating criminal, it was the way hte story was told. Dude demands money and a pack of cigarettes… fuck… why not a carton… anyways he goes to put hte gun in his wasteband and BAM! Bye-Bye right testical. Top it all… he goes home.. onlyh to have the police find him ( didn’t say how… but I assume he called 911 because he was bleeding pretty bad.) See, I tell my son he should quit smoking and this is why… he could shoot his nuts off.
Oh my. I must tell all of you, you all provide so much for me…comic relief and intellectually stimulating conversation all rolled into a convenient puke-green package. 🙂 Someday, it would be a privilege to meet all of you.
Allen – I agree, one cannot pick and choose which liberties to defend. But the ACLU is more known for wasting time and money than for actually accomplishing something. And I think they’d help more people if they earned themselves more respect. Just my opinion.
As for the right to bear arms…I’ve actually considered acquiring a firearm, but reconsidered after reading stories like the ones above. I don’t have nuts to shoot off but my husband does.
Perhaps… but ACLU is still more respectable than PETA. I don’t recall reading about the ACLU pulling off any of the stunts PETA does.
Plus EETE (Eggs for the Ethical Treatment of Eggs) is not looked down on like either the ACLU or PETA. I don’t think you’ll find a single commentator, liberal or conservative that’s EVER said anything bad about EETE.
By the way, we’re picketing McDonald’s on Sunday to protest their continued insistence on selling Egg McMuffins. Boycott your local McD’s! Make a difference!
LOL I already have, now I get other breakfast sandwiches with egg in them. Speaking of which, the EETE name makes me want to EAT one write now. Off I go…
er, right now*
Bad comments are like a software bug. The inability to find a bad comment does not mean it does not exist somewhere.
“with a gunshot wound to his right testicle and lower left leg”
Nice.
Oh, and you said “nuts” twice in one post. Huzzah! 🙂
An insane number of comments for what I considered a basically throw-away post. Interesting.